Miasteczko Wilanów & Vlasne Misto. Urban supervision by Guy Perry. (part 1)

Kostyantyn Kovshevatsky: Yaroslav, what connects you to Guy Perry? Of course, I would like to immediately ask you about what the urban expert recommended for Vlasne Misto, but let's take everything in order. How did you meet Perry?

Yaroslav Korniachenko:We met Guy during the international MIPIM event. As you know, this is the global real estate event, which gathers thousands of experts every March in Cannes. He came up to our stand with Dmitry Dopiro, and over several meetings, we gave Guy more details about our project. He was very surprised to know that someone in Ukraine is thinking of creating not just a new district, but a full-fledged city. In the international arena, we were primarily looking for partners and experts in different areas to jointly bring innovation and technology to the project, strengthen environmental directions, energy independence, and security. The city should work for the residents, not vice versa. It is the human-centered approach to urban planning that unites us with Guy. He began his Miasteczko Wilanów project by planning 169 hectares for a future population of approximately 30,000 residents.The project is grown beyond and the population growth larger than planned. We began to design Vlasne Misto on an area of 450 hectares for more than 30,000 residents, and the cluster continues to grow. Feeling the synergy, I invited Guy to join our project as an ambassador, consultant, and partner. In the end, he invited us to Wilanów to show us more details personally, and also expressed a desire to see what we are doing, meet the team, visit the location, and feel the vibe. His expertise is undoubtedly important to us, and it is even more pleasant when such a person highly appreciates our project, our principles, and our architecture.

K.K.: Let's start our conversation with Guy about Miasteczko Wilanów. The project is over 20 years old. During this year, it has received numerous awards and has become a prototype for many projects on the outskirts of European cities. As the author of this concept, can you say with confidence that all your plans have been successfully implemented?

Guy Perry:I was actively involved for the first 14 years. When I came to Poland and initiated the project on behalf of Ryszard Krauze with Woyteck Okanski and with a number of other local architects. At that time it was little interest in investing in Poland. It was the poor cousin of Europe. Everyone was focused on the Czech Republic, on Hungary, while Poland felt so big, poor, and had the reputation of corrupt. In short, it had everything that you, as an urban designer, would not want to face. But I still felt the potential, I was familiar with many Poles and knew how many wonderful things they were doing in other parts of the world. It is wrong to call Miasteczko Wilanów my project — and with many talented Polish professionals we made it into reality. And I just happened to be the guide who helped to shape and direct the development to make it sustainable.

For me, civic activism is the ideal expression of democracy, when people feel involved, feel empowered

I had the opportunity to meet with Polish urban designers and jointly create a very pragmatic concept of how to expand a city in the 21st century without having a chest full of money.How to do this from scratch so that every step is economically viable right now and how to create something sustainable in the long term. When building a community, even more so than building individual buildings, you set the framework for people's life for at least decades, if not centuries. This cannot be taken lightly.

From the very beginning, my partners for the concept had many good intentions. The Urban Planning Department of Biuro Planowania Rozwoju Warszawy (BPRW) employed urban designers from communist times. And, to be honest, there was a lot of common sense in the planning principles of the previous era. Most of what they did was very smart and very sustainable compared to some purely market-driven developments. In BPRW, they had the experience, they understood the permitting process, and therefore I was very eager to have a dialogue with them and discuss the building density, height, etc. Paweł Detko from the studio of architecture DJiO also had his vision of modern urbanism, which I fully shared. Together we establish the fundamentals for the community.

With my firm we studied the historical districts of Warsaw that remained attractive despite the times and losses. We asked people what they liked about other cities around the world that they have visited, for example, Boston or London, Paris, Barcelona, Los Angeles — we tried to understand the secrets of attractiveness and create a new vision for the development of local districts.

I had two goals that I would call atypical for that time. Usually, people talk about return on investment, but it is more useful to think about higher goals — what are the intentions behind your actions? One of my goals is the well-being of the residents. Nowadays, it is a popular topic, but in 1999 no one talked about well-being, and even more so in developing countries.

The second goal is to create a community that follows democratic values. There are many thoughts and views on what democracy is. I think democracy truly works if society is engaged in a positive way of living. And I think we have been very effective in achieving these two goals.

On democracy

K.K.: How did you manage to build a democratic community in a single district of Warsaw? In the Polish press, Miasteczko Wilanów is often called "lemingrad" — originating from the word “lemming”. As I understand, this is about the image of lemmings, who would blindly go fascinated by some unrealizable dream. How fair is this comparison? And most importantly, was it possible to avoid segregation and create a "city for everyone", not an elite settlement for the chosen ones?

GP: In Poland, there is a certain category of people who have progressive thinking. And we create the pro-european environment for those who want everyone to peacefully go about their farm work, have children, and not interfere with their re-election. We created a pro-European environment, although some journalists compared the residents to lemmings who blindly follow European values. But according to statistics, our residents were the most educated people in the country.

I would not say that we were creating a district for the elite, our project is not about elitism. I deliberately combined apartments of 40 square meters with apartments of 260 square meters in the same buildings. The person living in a 40-square-meter apartment may have worked as a music teacher and had a low income, but I was happy that different people have the opportunity to be part of this community. And often it was children from families with lower income who became leaders on the playgrounds. Miasteczko Wilanów was conceived as a very diverse, integrated environment, and for me, it was also part of democracy. Democracy is about mixing people in such a way that economics is the main measure of their position in society.

Openness isn't just about showing trust in each other, it's just comfortable. You can go anywhere directly, in a short way. Security in society is created by openness

Another way, I would say, we went through to create a democratic environment was that during several elections we set records for voter turnout in the districts of Poland. In terms of voter turnout, we were consistently 20–30 points higher than the national average. For me, civic engagement is the ideal expression of democracy, when people feel involved, feel empowered.

Let me remind you that it was 2000, and then our goal was difficult to measure. The fact that our residents were called lemmings only indicates that they were like-minded in their hopes for a new future for Poland and its positive role in the European community and the world as a whole.

On well-being

K.K.: The well-being of residents is primarily about safety, health, the opportunity for self-realization, and much more. How could planners, and you in particular, influence all of this?

GP: According to statistics, Miasteczko Wilanów has the outstanding health statistics, and the district has been the area with the highest birth rate in Poland for many years. And most interestingly, we had many children born to the most educated women in the country. This amazing fact was discovered by Newsweek journalists, and when I read the article, I thought it was one of our greatest achievements.

K.K.: So, you managed to create an environment that is not just comfortable for women and children, which is one of the laws of universal urban design today, but you took the bar higher and created an environment where educated women who are passionate about their careers still want and can have many children.

GP: Such an environment means that the city should be extremely convenient for women, it should be easily passable and provide real multifunctionality in use. Now planners often talk about mixed-use, but in reality, everything is very limited: Starbucks, Żabka (a chain of popular convenience stores in Poland), and, perhaps, a few offices, while the rest should be housing. And this is called mixed-use. For me, an example of mixed-use is the 6th arrondissement of Paris and the Eixample in Barcelona. We tried to create something similar in Warsaw, and I believe that we have undoubtedly achieved success in terms of well-being.

We were also recently rated the happiest community in Warsaw, which is great, although I'm not sure about the correctness of happiness metrics.

We achieved success by creating an open community. Yes, the territory where tens of thousands of people live includes private courtyards, while the public space belongs to everyone as usual. This is the antithesis of a gated community, where you don't care what's going on around you. In our case, people care a lot about their neighborhood.

Only 50% of the upper floor was available for construction. This has led developers to make what I call rooftop villas, or Villas sur le toit in French

On safety

Y.K.: In one of my previous interviews with PRAGMATIKA.MEDIA, I talked about our community safety concept — while we provide video surveillance and security, the community itself has a decisive role.

In Miasteczko Wilanów, we did not see any external fences or any means of separation from other neighborhoods. The street video surveillance systems are now dismantled or switched to automatic recording, as there is no need to spend money on their operational maintenance. People know each other visually, older children look after younger ones... Guy's son went for a walk on his own at the age of six, without adults accompanying him. The quarters are open but designed in such a way that the courtyards and streets are visible from the windows.

During the design, we grouped mixed-use quarters and commercial facilities on the ground floors facing active driveways. HoReCa facilities are located throughout the megablock’s territory depending on the level or occupancy. Internal park areas are arranged within the quarters for residents only, while public areas, recreation areas with rain gardens, green spaces, and multifunctional zones for all age groups of children are located between the quarters. Such a layout optimizes the use of the area and enables different generations to freely communicate, have fun, and compete. But most of the neighborhoods are open. Megablocks are united into a larger group around educational institutions and public squares, which are also different in function and architecture, so that residents have the opportunity and desire to move throughout the entire city. Coworking spaces and office premises are also located on the squares. I believe that when the period of city creation is over, and the residents get acquainted with the area, when we reach the feeling that all residents are "their own among their own", it will be an active safe society that will develop the city's economy and its own communications and businesses. People themselves will feel this moment. Moreover, openness is not only a demonstration of trust in each other, it is simply convenient. You can go to any point directly, by a short path, and not around the quarters. Security in society is created by openness. This is an axiom for us.

On education

K.K.: Guy, you mentioned the relatively high level of education among your residents. Has this fact somehow affected the planning specifics?

GP: If someone says that we were oriented towards the elite, towards a certain segment of people, then... Yes, we were focused on educated people. I will again refer to the Newsweek article — there is a truly exceptional number of well-educated specialists among our residents compared to neighboring areas. I am half-American, so I understand the problems of segregation and its long-term negative consequences. It was not about economics, it was a very affordable community. Now it is a very wealthy community, but when we started, everything was different. It was more about people who have a common desire for a better life, who wish the same for their children, to be a part of Europe. For me, this is a universal aspiration.

We basically planned a numbers of different schools with different specializations in Miasteczko Wilanów. If you have several children, then you know that everybody is unique — someone is good at one thing, someone is good at something else. Therefore, we need several schools for the district, not a single large one. This was a very important component and one of the keys to making women feel comfortable, because the success of their children is the key to their peace of mind.

On diversity

KK: One of the main principles of European urbanism is also the diversity of the environment, isn’t it? Guy, did you manage to create a heterogeneous environment in Miasteczko Wilanów?

GP: We really did our best. We have created places for shopping, grocery stores located nearby, beauty salons — everything that makes everyday life convenient. And we tried to make sure that people had a choice — several schools, several veterinarians, several children's clinics. We also have a large hospital, which is semi-private, as some of the very expensive equipment is used for public needs. State clinics in Poland could not afford such equipment, and we created a high-class hybrid model.

And we created a place of worship — a temple that has become a landmark and one of the symbols of the district. Has become a symbol of contemporary religion of Eastern part of Europe. It’s more the symbol of the freedom more then about the religion. Some people like this building, some don't, but I know that religion is still an important aspect of Polish life. The churches played an important role in communist times, being a certain place of freedom, and for me, the idea of creating a temple was a return to the idea of democracy. I will not comment on the actions of the Polish church in recent decades, but I still consider the existence of the temple to be a very positive aspect. So, the planning included not only the construction of housing and commercial development, but also working with other dimensions, including the spiritual dimension for many people. And for me, that's great, that sometimes crowds of Pope’s venerators or adherents of other churches gather with us! For me, this is the sign of a real city.

If you can make the neighborhood walkable and truly mixed, that's what maximizes energy efficiency and carbon reduction

The cost

K.K.: Today, real estate in Miasteczko Wilanów is one of the most expensive in Warsaw. Perhaps this is why the district is called elite. How can you create a mixed community if the price per square meter is astronomical? You have already mentioned one option — a mix of small and large apartments. And yet, what other approaches did you use to make housing affordable for a large number of people?

GP: Yes, Poland was a really poor country in 1999–2000. The only way most people could afford to live in Miasteczko Wilanów was to take out a loan. A large loan at 110% of the property value and the opportunity to finish it.

We understood this and deliberately did not finish the interiors so that the prices for apartments would be lower. Some people used expensive materials for the finishing work. Other people finished their interiors very simply and with their own hands. This allowed families with different incomes to become homeowners. It is precisely homeownership that gives people in developing countries a sense of security. And ultimately, it allows them to use their property for other purposes, such as educating their children, for medical needs, or for anything else that may happen in life.

We also deliberately tried to reduce the importance of cars for our residents. Yes, we know that buying a car is the second largest expense item for most of these families after a house. It is a financial dream to have a car for each member of the family. But already then, as well as today, we would like to have as few cars as possible in our district. We have planned 1,5 parking spaces per housing unit. And this is a high index by modern urban standards. But the point was that people could have these cars, but we were going to do make it so that they didn't have to use them four, five, six times a day by arranging everything nearby.

On height and density

K.K.: Despite the height restrictions, you have achieved a high building density, haven’t you? After all, you have limited the building height focusing on the height of the historical palace building.

GP: Average height and high density are not contradictions. I would say that not height as such, but the scale of buildings compared to human size is important for the well-being of people and the creation of a solid district. When you look at the street from the fifth floor, you can identify the passerby. It could be your friend, your neighbor, anyone, you can still recognize them. And it is quite another matter if I look from the height of a skyscraper — in this case, people are like ants.

By limiting the height, we have achieved a high population density, which is about three times the average for Warsaw. That is, we built the district on a scale based on human size and increased profits due to the higher density. At the same time, people do not feel this density or any crampedness when walking the streets of Miasteczko Wilanów.

Other recommendations that I gave were about the street width. My opinion was that it should be the minimum allowed by law. At that time, there was a tendency to imitate American urbanism with wide streets and large distances between buildings. But this is a big hit on pedestrians. By the way, one of the realities that makes Kyiv wonderful is the high density in the city center. So, for me it is a timeless principle, it is simply humane.

Y.K.: During my visit to Miasteczko Wilanów, even though it was Monday lunchtime, there were a lot of people on the streets. Is saw many children. Today, most restaurants work on a schedule widespread in Europe, where the kitchen opens only from 6 pm or for breakfast, and until that time you can only have coffee or a light snack. Many people do sports and ride bicycles. The area near the office center is very active with multiple playgrounds for kids of all age groups, as well as cafes on the ground floor. Despite the narrow streets, we never witnessed a traffic jam. The area is very lively, and people look definitely happy. Perhaps, commercial facilities and restaurants would have even higher economic efficiency if population density could be increased in some quarters by replacing two-story houses with 4–5-story ones.

K.K.: Guy, would you really increase the height and density of a new urban district today?

GP: I think today the optimal height is four to seven floors, if you are creating an urban area. In certain cases, a vertical landmark is created in the urban landscape to be seen from afar. You might want to have a variety, but you also may need a building that will become a symbol of the area. In Miasteczko Wilanów, we had a temple that was visible from many kilometers away, so we no longer needed any additional symbols.

I personally prefer mid-rise typology. In some cases, taller buildings are more appropriate, again, as a kind of sign or symbol for the area. In the past, such objects were mostly religious. Today these are most often commercial buildings. High-rise architecture can be interesting, but in general, creating a high-rise city is associated with many problems, one of which is people’s health.

I taught at the University of Hong Kong, and one of the things we learned in Hong Kong is that the rate of diabetes among children living in high-rise towers is much higher than in low-rise buildings. Instead of the child getting into the elevator and going down to walk somewhere, the parents just give him an iPad. They think that in this way they give them knowledge, but unfortunately, this affects their health.

Y.K.: I think that if we are talking about megacities like Hong Kong, then residential spaces can be alternated with the corresponding areas of public spaces, parks, right?

GP: My students and I studied this issue, and the reality is that high-rise buildings are simply necessary in most cities due to little land available and transportation specifics. In Hong Kong, the MTR transport company is investing in the creation of new high-rise districts around metro stations with a population density that is simply impossible in Europe. That is exactly in such cases that the problem arises with the health of children who do not go for walks, but spend all their time with gadgets.

We studied this issue with my graduate students: can we create parks between floors, can we make elevators that stop on every third floor so that you can get out and walk to your apartment using the stairs? Can we create public spaces on these floors — maybe a place for ping-pong, another place for a barbecue, and so on? At the same time, there should be a service elevator and an elevator for people with disabilities, which stops on all floors. This would solve both problems of the towers — the first being the lack of physical activity, and the second — the lack of social interaction. Residents of Hong Kong high-rises do not have relationships with their neighbors, although they live in a very dense environment. So, these are two pressing problems that we are trying to solve. Recently, together with my colleagues at MIT, we have been studying three-dimensional cities with streets at different levels, which are already emerging in the UAE, China, Southeast Asia, India, and other countries with high population density. We have come up with some good solutions, but they have not yet been implemented.

K.K.: Let’s return to Miasteczko Wilanów — the height of most buildings there is 14,5 meters. There is one with a height of 20 meters in the center, and, of course, the definite exception is the temple.

GP: The height of 14,5 meters is a very human dimension, but it does not guarantee unconditional success. The area near the palace had even smaller, four-story buildings, while buildings in neighboring areas went to five floors in height. Not all five-story buildings were successful. But here is an interesting detail — only 50% of the top floors were available for development. This forced the developers, whether they liked it or not (and most of them didn't like it at first), to do what I call roof villas, or “Villas sur le toit” in French. Everyone said: "Oh, no one will buy this! It is obvious that if you have 40-square-meter apartments, then why would anyone buy an apartment in the same house with an area of more than 200 square meters on the roof with a large terrace? You are mixing markets!"

I had a lot of heated discussions with market experts who said that this was not possible. That the whole building should be the same, and everyone should have 70 square meters. All families are the same — two children and a dog, and you cannot mix people with a higher or lower income, and so on. And I said: “well, let's see!”

And actually, these roof villas created tremendous value for the entire building. People who lived in modest apartments were also proud that one of the richest or most influential people in the city or country had settled in their house. So, this decision turned out to be important for creating a structure for a diverse community. Developers quickly realized that these roof villas were selling well. People came even from Konstancin (a suburb of Warsaw. — Ed.) or Mokotów (one of the districts of Warsaw. — Ed.), the areas with large houses, and they said: "Hey, I like this idea of life, where I can live in a green villa on the roof, but I can always go downstairs, have a delicious dinner, and my child can walk to school on foot." For me, this way of life is a manifestation of obvious common sense, but for many people, it has become a revelation and has significantly changed their way of life.

If I had followed the path of an ordinary developer and thought only about profitability, we would not have achieved such great success. Surely enough, this might work if you are building a single building, but when you are dealing with tens of thousands of people, you are creating a complex organism.

About the design code

K.K.: And what about the role of design codes? For example, the designers banned billboards from Miasteczko Wilanów, although no such bans are in place in Warsaw.єactivists banned billboards in Miasteczko Wilanów, although there are no such bans in Warsaw.

GP: Creating a beautiful and healthy environment leads to a higher level of sustainability. Today you can design buildings with negative carbon emissions or buildings with a positive energy balance, etc. However, the maximum energy efficiency and reduction in carbon emissions are achieved by making the area walkable and truly mixed.

Even if we find ways for cars to move without any harmful impact on the environment, it will negatively affect us, people. Because walking is fundamental to our well-being, and if we do not create an environment that encourages walking, then I do not care how clean are transport trips in terms of emissions. Even if they are absolutely clean, I don't want to use transport too often.

Visual appeal is important because it motivates you to walk. Of course, illegal signs and advertisements appeared everywhere, even though the design code prohibited them. I contacted the municipality and asked if we could remove them. They answered me that it’s not quite easy, because it is not our property. So, what were we going to do? During one of the public events, hundreds of billboards were removed, and we put them in the parking lot near the city hall. And we asked people to inform the owners so that they can come and take their billboards. And when a few more billboards appeared a month later, we removed them too, and then it was all over. Because they understood that signs could not be placed here. I just wanted to be honest, I didn't want to do anything illegal, but I needed to make it obvious that although advertising is allowed in the rest of Poland, our area is a new generation of Poland, and we needed to achieve a higher degree of order in our physical environment. Public and semi-public spaces are places that need to be specifically structured and adapted for the well-being of people.

On retail

K.K.: We often write that the time of large malls is over, but we saw the planned huge Wilanów Park in the news recently — a multifunctional shopping and entertainment center with shops, catering, a multiplex cinema. If we understood correctly, you did not plan to have a megamall. Is it possible to do without it and why?

GP: The way retail is integrated into the area is important. At the very beginning, it was assumed that we would build a center with shops, cinemas, restaurants — in fact, a shopping center, but “turned inside out”. We never intended to create indoor shopping centers. You put all these goods in a box, they disappear from the streets. This greatly changes the character of the area and the way people shop. It was very controversial to do something like a traditional shopping center. In the end, hundreds of shops appeared throughout the area, which is even better than a lively "inside-out shopping center" in a single square. For me, this is closer to the model of the 6th arrondissement of Paris or the Eixample district of Barcelona, which are very alive.

Now, in case the retail needs to be concentrated in one place, because there’s no room for it left, I hope it will be done in synergy with the district. For people, shopping is an experience that becomes identified with the place. It is more than just gathering a lot of buyers in one box and forcing them to spend as much money as possible. Yes, this area is now worth a lot of money. It is located between Miasteczko Wilanów, the palace, and the ring road. I think that the evolution in the minds of developers has already taken place, and whoever develops this place in the future, we hope that it will be a positive development and that the developers will consider the graciousness of the context.

Vlasne Misto is a revolutionary project. In Europe, there are facilities where a logistics center is located on the first floor, and greenhouses are located on the roofs. But our greenhouse is the primary thing, the rest is around it

Research that is currently being conducted around the world shows that you can create shopping centers that are part of a mixed-use environment. The idea was that we would create a highly varied city center, not just a mall. I thought about it 20 years ago, but then there were no investors on the market to implement such ideas. Now it has become mainstream.

K.K.: If it is not a shopping center or a church, then what else can become the main magnet of the city center? Yaroslav, do you have an alternative option for the center of Vlasne Misto, don’t you?

Y.K.: Yes. Our central square has a vertical greenhouse with a clock indicating the center for our residents and guests 24/7 like a lighthouse. It is also highly sophisticated and important for the food security of the city. Guy, in particular, was surprised that we placed a vertical greenhouse complex in the center of the urbanization of Vlasne Misto. After all, traditionally the center is the most advantageous place for commercial facilities and housing. In terms of design, greenhouses have a protective zone, which by law can only include commercial facilities and not residential buildings. The second point is that if we moved the greenhouse to the outskirts, it would not work as a center of gravity, and the commercial pavilions would be irrational. And having placed it in the center, we simultaneously demonstrate the value of plant cultivation, the value of the local product, and involve all residents in this exciting process. And most importantly, the greenhouse building works as a large air purifier, filtering 7000 tons of CO₂ from the air per year (replacing 300 thousand trees), and also 8000–9000 tons of CO₂ received from sewage treatment plants! Considering that the space under the greenhouse will contain food warehouses and shelters, a battery energy storage system, and a power station, we immediately solve the issue of safety and goods turnover underground. We have also designed an energy-efficient exchange between the greenhouse and the surrounding buildings — in addition to shopping pavilions, public and recreational areas are situated between the blocks. Yes, our project is revolutionary. In Europe, certain buildings have logistics centers located on the first floor, and greenhouses are on the roofs. But for us, the greenhouse is the priority, while the rest is located around it.

 

On green spaces

K.K.: In one of the interviews, Guy said: "Plant a tree and it will hide even the most shameful architecture." Modern cities are becoming greener, and the subject of green spaces is one of the most discussed today. Did your concept have a separate section dedicated to green spaces?

GP: The subject of green spaces is a separate one and very important. How would you create a holistic landscape if you have a mix of public and semi-public spaces, as well as private spaces? In the end, many of our plans were not implemented. The city either did not have the funds or the budget was directed elsewhere. And private developers were not interested in what was outside their territory.

We organized public events and held about ten of them. We took, for example, one kilometer of the street and completely transformed it in two hours. Hundreds of people came out. We planted hedges, flowers, trees and installed benches bought with donated money. And this street became a place that people were proud of. I sincerely believe that one of the reasons why the community is so safe today is that it belongs to the residents. This does not mean that they literally own the real estate and land, but they own the space, as they participated in its creation.

Yes, we had good recommendations, but good recommendations are not enough, because you need goodwill. And this gap needs to be filled. In our case, this gap was filled thanks to the actions of the community. Otherwise, construction equipment would still be standing in the parks.

K.K.: I was surprised when looking at Miasteczko Wilanów from a height — we did not see any green exploited roofs, although most of the buildings have flat roofs. Why did you omit such a popular technique as vertical landscaping?

GP: Let me explain. Green roofs are still quite expensive today, and they were too expensive twenty years ago. What we did were roof villas — 50% of the roof was an apartment, the remaining 50% became a terrace. Most people have planted greenery on their terraces. They planted trees, hedges, and put flowers. So, in a sense, the terraces became a cheap replacement for a green roof, made by the richest people in the house at their own expense. Do I think this is the perfect solution? Well, maybe not, but you know, some developers have started placing solar panels on other parts of the roof that are not terraces. Is it the perfect solution? Probably not, but I think it was right during that period of Polish history, and with the funds we had at our disposal and the disposal of the city. So, if we had made green roofs, we would have made housing unattainable to many people.

I also have a 160 square meter terrace with several trees in my apartment, and it's quite nice.

Y.K.: 160 meters of terrace? You would be called crazy here in Ukraine! Why then didn't you just choose a house on the ground, with a garden?

GP: But I like having a roof villa. The advantage of a house is that there is space around it, and you are removed from the hustle and bustle of the city. When you go outside, you see people and a city tram, but when you are inside, you see trees and birds. The reality is that most people don't use their thousand or two thousand square meters of land. Simply because they need a barrier separating them from their neighbors.

Having only 160 square meters of roof terrace, I got everything I needed. My children had a place to play, we had a place to hang a basketball hoop. We had a private area with a gazebo in the fresh air. And another green area, from where you could admire the whole city, and it was a little more public, you became more visible to people from there. So, the terrace is an extension of the living room. It was very comfortable for me. I miss this place.

Y.K.: An important question — what is the price per square meter of such a terrace roof?

GP: It is difficult to determine the exact price, but depending on where the building is located it usually ranges from 30% to 60% of the cost of a square meter of indoor space. If it is a house in the center of Paris, then a meter of the roof will cost 60% of the cost of a meter of the apartment, or maybe even more. If you are in the suburbs, the price will probably be closer to 30%.

From the developer's point of view, even a low price is better than just "leaving this money on the table." I would better sell these meters at a low price, but make some use of them.

We discovered that creating beautiful roof terraces can be very effective. It's just a matter of carefully considering the engineering aspects upfront. Otherwise, as you know, engineers will lay out all the pipes in the shortest possible way, leaving no free space on the roof. But if you regroup these elements and pay close attention to detail, you can create usable surfaces connected to the corresponding rooms inside. For instance, the playground on my terrace was connected to the children's room. The kids could immediately access their play area, which I thought was fantastic. There are also other rooms connected to the dining area, so if we wanted to eat outside, we could easily move from the dining room outside, upstairs.

K.K.: Do you still own this property, I mean your apartment in Miasteczko Wilanów? Do you live there? How do you like the quality of life from the inside?

Our apartment is currently rented out, and we haven't lived there for a long time. But it is a great place. Sometimes I ask my 16-year-old son: “Where would you like to live?” He lived in Hong Kong, he lived in India, Dubai, Slovakia, Poland, and France. And he said: "I would like to live in Miasteczko Wilanów." Wow, seriously? He says: “Yes, because it's great!” And he didn't say that to please me. He liked our apartment, but also the whole area. Of course, a child's view of the world is still a little limited, but it was still a good, honest answer.

You know, this may sound strange, but I cannot develop what I would not want for myself. Therefore, it does not matter what price category I am working on, the end result should be appealing to me. But I have to be careful not to spend too much money. Five-story buildings are not just comparable to human size in scale. This is the cheapest building height in Central Europe. So, I'm not just an altruist, I also understand that if the solution is financially unsustainable, then such a project will not develop. It's like winning a battle but losing the war, and I'm interested in winning the war.

If you are already focused on sustained growth, and not just on the basic economics of development, you can set higher goals for yourself. If you are still concerned with profit and efficiency, and this dictates the ways you implement things, then you should change your job. A lot of bad decisions have been made in cities based on efficiency. This is not development.