PRAGMATIKA.MEDIA: How did you come up with the idea of cooperation with Ukraïner?
Marko Savytskyi: First, I was approached by Bohdan Logvinenko [the founder of the Ukraïner project. — Note ed.] regarding the cooperation with Ukraïner, would I like to join the team, because they are currently looking for a host for the new season, who can convey some new meanings to the audience, be a leader in rebuilding communities, and not just be an observer. And I immediately agreed, because the restoration of the country in all aspects is what I have been doing for the past two years. It's about inclusiveness, barrier-free, accessibility.
Architect Marko Savytskyi in one of the courtyards among the destroyed buildings in Borodyanka. Photo: Yuriy Stefanyak, Ukrainer
When I was chosen, my team and I selected bright cases of infrastructure restoration, and made a shooting plan. And enough material has already been shot for two or three series.
The first season consisted of three series. Now the second is underway, and I don't know how many episodes there will be. We are still at the experimental stage, making many changes, adjusting something.
PM: What towns, besides Borodyanka, will be covered in the second season?
M. S .: Irpin, Gostomel, Bucha, Vorzel. Mostly it will be Kyiv region. These are the towns that were the first to undertake a full-scale invasion and occupation. Other cities are also planned, but they will be grouped by regional locations.
The restoration of Ukraine is impossible without the restoration of communities
From the first episode, we completely departed from the script of the previous season. Now, talking about architectural restoration, architecture in general, infrastructure, we still pay more attention to people and their stories. It's about human-centered architecture. In the second season, we smoothly move to the understanding that the restoration of Ukraine is impossible without the restoration of communities.
PM: Can you elaborate on the term "human-centered architecture"? What should such architecture be?
M. S .: Human-centered architecture is the kind of architecture in which a person and his needs are at the center. Because in the conditions of recovery, it makes no sense to build new infrastructure facilities where there are no residents at all, where people have left the communities, where the community is actually dead.
Of course, you can rebuild what was. However, I do not like the term "reconstruction". I prefer the term "new construction". We have to build new ones. Something that is not based on post-totalitarian principles of city formation.
Residential buildings in Borodyanka destroyed by the occupiers in February-March 2022. Photo: Yuriy Stefanyak, Ukrainer
We have already filmed several episodes, and in many of them I saw that 90% of communities, small towns, and villages see the reconstruction of the post-Soviet space. Therefore, we show those restored objects that break the paradigm that it is necessary to simply repair, rebuild. It is necessary to build something new, according to the needs of people who live here and now.
For example, when the TsNAP was being built in Borodyanka, I was interested not only in the structural element itself and how technologically it was built using modular technologies, but how many new services this TSNAP provides, whether it covers only the Borodyanka community or others.
Architect Marko Savytskyi visits the CNAP built from scratch in Borodyanka. Photo: Yuriy Stefanyak, Ukrainer
And one more very important aspect that touched me. In Borodyanka, they made a good TsNAP, which really relieves the community in the field of services, it was built in accordance with European standards and Ukrainian norms. There is an elevator for people with disabilities, for people in wheelchairs, but it does not work. And this is our post-Soviet paradigm, that nominally we follow the rules, but in fact they may not work. It turned out that for the entire time there was not a single person with a disability who needed to use this elevator. The architectural department is located on the second floor. And it turns out what if I, due to circumstances, I will be in a wheelchair, then I will not be able to work in this TsNAP. Instead, the meaning of the human-centered paradigm is that the person should always be at the center of everything.
Another example is the newly built lyceum, around which there is now so much hype and discussion in the media due to the opposition of the authorities to the opening of the building. Because our Ukrainian bureaucratic machine is sometimes not adapted to quick changes and decisions. This lyceum was rebuilt by the Lithuanian government with its own money. And here it was just as important to look not so much at the architectural integrity of the object, but at what the children receive as students.
During the full-scale war, the possibility of arranging shelters in former Soviet schools became a debatable issue. Very often, as an architect, I have heard that the problem in schools is that shelters cannot be made. All old school buildings do not lend themselves to proper re-planning to be really proper shelter, according to safety standards and regulations.
Architect Marko Savytsky near the restored lyceum in Borodyanka. Photo: Yuriy Stefanyak, Ukrainer
The project in Borodyanka became an example of how this shelter can be made, because it is not necessary to make it under the building itself. Each school has a territory, has some kind of internal playground, where a full-fledged shelter could be made. And we also talked and proved that it is not too expensive. That is, it is expensive, but it is not cosmic money. All the more so when we have many foreign partners who are ready to support and implement such projects.
PM: Can you provide a general assessment of already rebuilt objects? Does the city government manage to implement the plan, or vice versa, while there is no systematic vision of how to do it?
M. S .: In each episode, I try to understand whether the community has such a systemic vision, on the basis of which they will restore it. And, unfortunately, very often these are just local restoration projects.
There are various public groups that have their own projects, 2-3 master plans each with different visions. And it is difficult, although the local authorities understand that as long as there are foreign and foreign partners, state programs, there is a chance to rebuild.
Vriz: Efforts must be made to ensure that people receive infrastructure benefits in their communities
Currently, the "EPidtrymka" project is operating, which provides compensation for damaged homes. At the same time, a trend has emerged that people receive money for lost housing and go to Transcarpathia with that money. That is, the community is losing residents. It is not enough to simply rebuild houses if no one will live in them. Efforts must be made to ensure that people receive the infrastructural benefits in their own communities. The same TsNAP, for example, is not so much architecturally interesting as interesting as an infrastructural magnet that makes life easier for residents. After all, people from neighboring communities also come here. He helps them solve many housing issues.
The building of the Borodyan settlement council destroyed by the Russians. Photo: Yuriy Stefanyak, Ukrainer
Or, for example, the destroyed bridge in Irpen. Activists often emphasized: why should we restore it, "it would be better to spend that money on housing, on houses, on everything else, the bridge is not needed now." On the other hand, the bridge is an infrastructural military facility. It is used by troops, transports ammunition, is used by people who often need to travel from a small town to the capital, and is used to evacuate the wounded. Therefore, it is necessary to understand that such infrastructure elements are also needed. And indeed, the restoration of housing for people who lost it is important.
PM: By the way, people are currently receiving a lot of complaints that the process of rebuilding housing itself is quite slow. Kindergartens, schools, TsNAPy — of course, no one underestimates the importance of these facilities. But people have to go back somewhere.
M. S .: All these objects are not restored spontaneously, there is a certain plan. If a lyceum or dispensary is restored, it is done exactly where it is needed. Infrastructural facilities, such as dispensaries, are being rebuilt in accordance with new health care programs and are being optimized by community. In fact, they should be better and more efficient to cover 2-3 communities.
In our project, there were several buildings that were restored taking into account energy efficiency standards. Even panel houses. Tall buildings are insulated, major repairs are made. From what I have seen, serious complex works are being carried out.
PM: In your opinion, will communities be able to implement the concept that is being discussed a lot now: Build Back Better? In the future, is there a real chance that the rebuilt objects that were destroyed will be better than they were?
M. S .: I think it's a very difficult process because the state of some communities is really just terrible. This was the case even before the war, although many communities were developing, such as Irpin, Gostomel. After the terrible destruction they suffered, the question arose: what are we rebuilding? And this issue must be considered in each specific case, because it is impossible to apply one recipe to all communities.
Mykolaiv, Kharkiv region, Kherson region, Kyiv region - each region will demand its own conditions for recovery. In the project, we emphasize the application of such principles as sustainable development, transparency of financing, inclusiveness and barrier-freeness. Inclusivity is considered here as an element of involving all citizens in the processes. And this is the most difficult. Because community leadership does not always communicate with people. That is, such a post-Soviet, small-town and archaic feudal structure that does what it wants still remains. But people have changed. There are many volunteers, activists, visionaries who, even in small towns, are destroying this old pattern of communication between the community, citizens and the authorities. In each episode, we try to invite such people - they show the city in a slightly different way. We rarely talk to management who can show a beautiful city how they are restoring everything beautifully. We always take someone who can on the other hand show some moments related to difficulties.
Architect Marko Savytskyi in the hall of the restored lyceum in Borodyanka. Photo: Yuriy Stefanyak, Ukrainer
In my opinion, each town should develop its own narrative. Who are we? Where are we going? Who do we want to become? Without understanding who we want to become, it is impossible to rebuild competently and correctly. Whether it will be a town for young people, or a town for older people, whether it is an educational hub, or just a resort location near Kyiv. The city must understand what it is. If it's a holiday town, it can't have any tall buildings. The scale of the city must be maintained.
PM: What is the ultimate goal of the project? What would be evidence that a particular episode or piece of footage led to a particular result? What should this result be?
M. S .: First of all, it is the destruction of prejudices that reconstruction should not be done now. Many say that we can rebuild the country only when the war ends. And there is a certain amount of truth in that, because we do not know where this war will stop and what further destruction there will be. But, as Valery Kharchyshyn said in one of the episodes: "The time we wait for is life." And we show with each plot with each of our guests that it must be done now, it is not difficult. Not only the governments of our friends, such as Lithuania, can rebuild, not only ordinary volunteers. This is done by ordinary people, ordinary architects from Kyiv, who restored their home together with like-minded people.
Many of the heroes say that they regret those moments of unity in the first three or four months. Then all the people united and helped. And I would also like to try to remind about this association when we live in times of certain toxicity and anxiety. I would like to urge people to unite and act, not to expect everything only from the state.
In addition, it is also a change in the prejudice that all reconstruction is connected with corruption. We show transparent and virtuous examples, form a narrative that not everything in reconstruction is connected with corruption. We try to show an example of how it is possible: how to restore a high-rise building in Gostomel, involve neighbors and organize fundraising, how to restore a kindergarten with the help of foreign partners, how to use the DREAM platform, etc.
PM: In your opinion, do destroyed cities have a future and prospects to become a really high-quality center for people's comfortable life? To become cities where you want to return?
M. S .: This is the vector to which we should strive. Because we really can't get a formula that works for all communities right now on how to get people to come back. But the only way to encourage this is when those who are now in the community unite on some platforms where they communicate, because people have learned to communicate.
They have to produce, as I said before, naratin who we were and who we want to become, for whom we make these communities. Who went - okay, people have the right to go. Many people leave, and it is normal for a person to leave a city where there is danger, take support funds and buy something in a safer place. Because we don't have people from Kharkiv, we don't have people from Sumy, we don't have people from Kyiv, Lviv. We have Ukrainians. This is our country and we have the right to live where we want. We are not the Soviet Union. Therefore, the question of how communities can make a person want to return remains open.
PM: In addition to the Lyceum in Borodyanka, can you give another example that was successful from the point of view of restoration, and an object that could definitely be done differently?
M. S .: We have a very large volume of such reconstructions. About 2500 objects are being rebuilt in the Kyiv region. Therefore, we choose interesting and diverse ones for the project. There are debatable objects. The Irpin Bridge, for example, is a project of the Reconstruction Agency, it was done well and quickly. On the other hand, activists say that the bridge was built without taking into account the principles of sustainable development, since there are no bicycle lanes. The scale of Irpen provides bike lanes because so many people ride bikes. This is not taken into account.
The facade of the restored lyceum in Borodyanka. Photo: Yuriy Stefanyak, Ukrainer
There is a completely unique example, when Valery Kharchyshyn said in one of the episodes that he will not expect any handouts from the state, saying that he wants to live "here and now". His house was completely burned down by a rocket, and he began to build a modular home for himself at his own expense. Moreover, Valery launched a channel on YouTube, where he shows how you can rebuild your own home without all the money in the world. At the same time, the majority of activists say that we thereby nullify the state's obligation to restore such houses. And a person says: "Perhaps, the state should, but I live here and now and rebuild."
PM: Still, it's a personal choice for everyone. In addition, not every citizen can afford to build a new home from scratch.
M. S .: Valery Kharchyshyn has a foundation. It shows that fundraising can get you that money now.
But there are serious episodes where people from Donetsk region and Luhansk region have completely lost their homes, they have nowhere to return to, and they probably won't return in the near future. The American foundation built a home for such people and they will probably live in it for the rest of their lives. At the same time, a certain infrastructure has been created there: there is a cinema, a club, they have greenhouses there.
Human-centeredness means that a person should be given housing, given the opportunity to earn and do his favorite things
The post-Soviet paradigm is to throw all people, in particular people with disabilities, the elderly, somewhere far away so that no one sees them, and simply keep them. Human-centeredness means that a person should be given housing, given the opportunity to earn and do his favorite things.
PM: Can you provide an assessment of accessibility and inclusiveness in the facilities that have been rebuilt? To what extent are they maintained within the limits of those norms that are in our DBN?
M. S .: Let's put it this way, almost 99% of the projects that we have seen restored or newly built with the help of foreign partners, our friends, are inclusive and barrier-free. All of Europe has been living like this for a long time, and for it the question of imitating barrier-freeness does not even arise.
Objects built by our young, modern architects also contain barrier-free and inclusive solutions in almost 90% of cases. The only thing is that, in addition to nominal barrier-freeness, such as an elevator in TsNAP, there should be an understanding of inclusiveness. If there is an elevator call button, it should work.
The process of building a ramp at the Borodyanka Lyceum for people with reduced mobility. Photo: Yuriy Stefanyak, Ukrainer
We often talk about barrier-free architecture, but inclusivity is about engagement. It can be both financial and economic. Borodyan Lyceum was not created in such a way that Lithuanians would teach some exclusive students in this educational institution. It has been rebuilt and re-planned so that all children feel comfortable there, even children with disabilities.
Perhaps this will become an anchor for the return or relocation of people to those communities where there are some infrastructural improvements.
When we stop dividing people into different categories, then our society will begin to recover comfortably
People often think that inclusion means creating a comfortable space for people with disabilities. However, an inclusive barrier-free space is actually a universal design that is created for everyone. Because people with disabilities are no different from everyone else. There are mothers with wheelchairs, elderly people, they all need barrier-free access. When we stop dividing people into different categories, then our society will begin to recover comfortably.
Barriers are not only curbs and ramps. Barriers are everything that hinders our development. Accessibility in the administrative building, accessibility of communication with the authorities is also a kind of barrier-free. We need to move away from the paradigm that barrier-freeness applies only to architectural and building standards.
We always talk about sustainable development. What we are rebuilding now must be in demand for many years to come. Our generations should be comfortable so that they do not have to rebuild in the future in conditions of lack of resources.
In the 50s, universal design did not appear for nothing. Capitalist countries have realized that by involving people with disabilities in the economy who are self-sufficient, intelligent and able to work, they are giving the economy a second chance for development. Failure to attract such people means financial losses.
The absence of barriers gives residents the opportunity to return. A person knows that in that community, in that city, he gets opportunities for his development and the necessary funds for himself.
The second episode of the second season of "Makariv community: how reconstruction continues after de-occupation" has already been released as part of the documentary project "Cities Restoration".
