PRAGMATIKA.MEDIA: Why did you decide to participate in Babiy Yar Holocaust Memorial Center project competition, what was the determining factor?
Anton Oleynyk: This is not our first competition with [phase eins]. When they held a competition for the project of the Museum of the Revolution of Dignity, we saw from our own experience that they have a very clear organization, always a detailed brief. Unlike competitions held by Ukrainian organizers, [phase eins]. issues concrete tasks and detailed technical requirements - it is immediately clear what exactly we must do, what is required of architects.
Anton Oleynyk, architect
Alexey Pakhomov: Of course, we also take part in Ukrainian competitions - we have the first prize in the competition for the reconstruction of the Ukrainian House and the prize for the project for the reconstruction of Kontraktova Square - not only our office worked there, there was a joint team. But in principle, we take part only in those competitions that are well organized.
A. O.: ...and we refuse when technical tasks are floating, when it is not clear who is on the jury and why all this is being done at all. [phase eins]., organizing already the second competition in Ukraine, sets a new, very high bar. Here is a book with technical conditions, it has 157 pages, on which all the expectations of customers and organizers are described in detail. And this approach is familiar and understandable to us.
PM: What assessment can you give to the location itself? How promising is it for creating an extraordinary object that meets all the ambitious goals of the customer and modern architectural trends?
A.P.: It is quite large and, like any Soviet park, poorly maintained. Well, the project area itself is not landscaped at all, except that the alleys were recently repaired there. But the fact that the territory itself is abandoned for design is even good, I think, because we can do from scratch what we think is necessary.
Alexey Pakhomov, architect
PM: Filling the surrounding territory with multi-layered signs, monuments does not bother you? After all, do the customers want the building of the memorial center to be a focal point and bring the entire landscape together?
A.P.: This is not the task of the competition - to tie everything together, it is about the Holocaust Memorial Center and the events in Babi Yar. On the territory of design No. 2, where the creation of a landscape park is planned, there is only a kibitka dedicated to the dead Roma. The rest of the signs are all in the distance, and in summer, when the trees are in leaf, they are not even visible. A couple of years ago, a competition was held for the improvement of the entire territory, and his task was to collect everything together. They even chose a winner, but it didn't end with anything.
A. O.: Let me clarify: it was just a competition of ideas. Canadian customers turned to CANactions, and CANactions held this competition. I am not at all embarrassed by the fact that there are so many signs and monuments, the territory is huge... By the way, this is one of the problems of Ukrainian cities - the fact that we cannot correctly assess our opportunities. We have the ambitions of New York, and the opportunities of some regional center in Texas. We simply do not have the resources to maintain such huge territories. And there is no resource to develop a general idea and adhere to it. Therefore, all the symbols — there are 20 or so symbols — are a sign that the lack of a system generates point initiatives. But everything as a whole can also be perceived as a svoego kinda monument — a symbol of our relationship to the territory, to history, to the place, to ourselves.
Visualization of the renovation project of the industrial zone of the Rybalsky peninsula in Kyiv, developed by BURØ architects. Image source: buro-o.com
PM: Director [phase eins]. Benjamin Hossbach said that he considers the landscape itself very difficult to design. And how do you evaluate it, what exactly does "complexity" consist of?
A. O.: There are several layers. The first layer, the semantic layer, we have already discussed these signs, and the second layer is the topography itself. Why such a topography? You know that it is not original, in the sense that it does not correspond to the events of 1941. It was a ravine, and in 1961, when the Kurenev tragedy happened, the pulp that splashed on the Podil was brought back to Baby Yar by tractors. After that, the territory became almost flat. Almost nothing remains of the former landscape, and what we see now has nothing to do with the natural context. How does it relate to this? We haven't figured it out yet. Yes, probably, this can be considered a complication. We still have to figure it out.
The territory allows us to do what we consider necessary from scratch
PM: Memorial architecture is a complex topic in itself. There are two completely different approaches. One, when in the foreground is glorification of the feat (this is a typical Soviet approach), and the European, world one, when both soldiers and dead civilians are considered primarily victims of a catastrophe, a war. The architects of the Soviet Union had extensive experience in heroization, but had absolutely no experience in perpetuating the memory of the victims... Which approach is closer to you?
A. O.: Heroization is when they try to tell a story about the past. The classic is the "Mother Family" monument. There, the route begins with expositions devoted to the exploits of Soviet soldiers, then leads to some sign, where the ceremony of prostration takes place. This is a typical story that appeals to the past, to heroes, only to a certain extent to victims. Our task, which is facing the contestants, is focused on the future. The victims are terrible and senseless - and what should this teach? Thanks to the understanding of this topic, you can learn tolerance, new freedoms, and understanding of human dignity. Yes, two completely different concepts. But in this competition there is no task to design a classic monument similar to the Soviet ones.
Visualization of the project "Museum of the Revolution of Dignity" by BURØ architects, which took 2nd place in the international competition. Image source: buro-o.com
A.P.: And what we are going to design is not a museum in the traditional sense. If you look at the brief, you can see that quite a lot of space is supposed to be allocated for research, educational, in a word, museum-related activities. That is, the function of the memorial center is not just the exposition of historical artifacts.
A. O.: Let's recall the competition for the project of the Holocaust monument in London. Be that as it may, but all solutions are basically similar, because the message is the same. Our task as architects is to implement such an idea as expressively, cleanly and clearly as possible. There is no place for heroism here - what kind of heroism is there if people did not even know that they were being led to the slaughterhouse...
PM: Doesn't it seem that this whole drawn-out story with the demand to perpetuate the memory of the victims of Babi Yar encountered resistance from a certain part of the society, which was determined to insert a heroic note into the concept after all? Or perhaps it was an outright negationism?
A. O.: I have been working with the topic of memorialization for a long time. For five years now, we have been designing small memorials, or rather, signs at the places of mass shootings. It's also about the events of the Second World War, when the shootings took place mainly of the Jewish population. The Protected Memory program was implemented in Western Ukraine, then moved to the center of the country. This year, three or four monuments will be implemented in the Zhytomyr region and six or seven monuments (we are not doing this, but our colleagues) in Vinnytsia. The reason for rejection, resistance from society is that everyone is afraid. People think: "Acknowledging the fact of the events, we take responsibility and must answer for it."
The shape of the building is a paraphrase of a natural monument. Visualization for the "Museum of the Revolution of Dignity" project by BURØ architects. Image source: buro-o.com
The modern approach is first of all a clear understanding that we are not involved in these events, we cannot be responsible for what others did many years ago, we did not shoot, we did not organize the shootings. But we are responsible for the attitude towards the victims, for the attitude towards the events themselves. This is the zone of our responsibility - not for the actions themselves, but for the attitude towards them. Here it is, a modern approach. The local population often does not want to perceive our actions on memorialization, because they are sure: "As soon as we now recognize the Holocaust, we will immediately be accused of collaborationism and will begin to punish us somehow." No. No one has such a goal now.
In the world, the topic of the Holocaust has been studied so much that it is already understood at the level of more complex meanings. For example, one of the last monuments in Berlin is devoted to the topic of euthanasia (the "Blue Wall" memorial was installed in 2014 at the building on Tiergartenstrasse, 4, where the program of euthanasia of people with mental disorders was planned. — Ed.), before that it was created memorial to homosexuals, the Nazis also considered them enemies. The euthanasia program was a completely monstrous story. Already after Himmler closed it, the program was supported by grassroots initiatives. The murders continued for a while, simply because people were pumped up with propaganda.
In the world, the topic of the Holocaust is understood at the level of more complex meanings
PM: In the process of forming the concept for the competition, do you plan to study unrealized projects of memorials in Babi Yar, or will you not do this in order not to "cloud" the imagination, so to speak?
A.P.: We are now just studying. We watched Yevgeny Assa's project, where gas burners form a Star of David, and we will watch others. The complexity of our task also lies in the fact that among the victims there were not only Jews, and we have to find a balanced solution to honor the memory of everyone.
A. O.: What kind of form can be found to honor the memory of the mentally ill from the Kirillovsky Monastery, who were also shot by the Nazis?... So yes, it's all very difficult.
Foyer-atrium. Visualization for the "Museum of the Revolution of Dignity" project by BURØ architects. Image source: buro-o.com
PM.: The very fact that your decision will have to compete with the concepts of such authorities as Dorte Mandrup, Odile Deck, Peter Eisenman and others, does it inspire or embarrass you?
A.P.: First of all, we are flattered that we got into the long list and were chosen from a list of 165 applications. Well, it spurs on, gives excitement, because it is very interesting to compare one's strengths at such a level.
A. O.: Previous competition with [phase eins]. was very difficult, our employees had to work on weekends. And before applying, I asked in our closed Facebook group: "Well, who wants to repeat it, but in an even tougher form?". I expected 2-3 volunteers to respond. But almost the entire office "plusoval". They want everything. This is a big challenge for everyone. Ksenia Feofilaktova will help us with the landscape solution. She is a landscape architect and is currently improving her qualifications in Paris, where, by the way, this profession is called "landscaper".
A balanced solution must be found to honor everyone's memory
PM: Will the architectural concept itself be developed by the two of you? By the way, how does this happen in your office?
A. O.: Yes, that's exactly what happens when you and I sit and talk. We will gather together, watch examples and discuss. We have very little time left.
Visualization of the renovation project of the industrial zone of the Rybalsky peninsula in Kyiv, developed by BURØ architects. Image source: buro-o.com
